Tuesday, the 18th of February 2003

The opinions and statements made in this chat session belong to the individuals posting them and appear in unedited form to promote the free exchange of information. However, they may not represent the views and/or policies of the Georgia Center for Resources and Support.

cindy: Welcome everyone, tonights chat is on open adoption our guest in Cheryl Kirby!

cindy: Cheryl would you please tell us something about your self and your work

cheryl kirby: hello, my role at the Independent Adoption Center is Adoption Coordinator. I have my Master's Of Social Work. Live in Decatur, Love animals...

cheryl kirby: and I feel very passionate about my role in the process of open adoption

lisa s: Ms. Kirby, are you an adoptive parent?

cheryl kirby: no I am not

Jane: Would you define open adoption for us, as you use it at your agency?

Shannon: One question I have is: Once you begin working with a family, do you find their idea of open adoption differs from that of the agency?

cheryl kirby: we define open adoption as the process of birthparents choosing the adoptive parents and have an on-going relationship

cheryl kirby: shannon - yes - I believe their idea does change - the APs (adoptive parents) become less fearful of the process

andreas: How long have you worked in the area of adoption?

Shannon: Do you find that most relationships flourish over the years, or is there a point where they seem to stall, perhaps due to the age or circumstances of the parties involved?

cheryl kirby: I started off working for DFACS and have been with IAC for 2 1/2 years

cindy: what concerns do the birth families have?

cheryl kirby: shannon- yes - the relationship seems to develop overtime just as any...

cheryl kirby: it seems that once the foundation is built it becomes more comfortable for everyone...

rosalief: are you finding that more families are choosing open adoption as opposed to closed ?

cheryl kirby: seems that after placement, some birthparents want to move on with their lives and have some contact

lisa s: I would imagine it depends on the age of child when placed for adoption.

Kim: - has joined the chat -

cheryl kirby: Cindy - birthparents fear rejection from APs and judgement...

Shannon: I think the adoptive parents often have a hard time when that happens, because they have been trained to expect something ongoing.

cheryl kirby: they are afraid that after placement the APs will forget about them

cindy: what ages are the norm for open adoption?

cheryl kirby: rosalief - yes it seems that open adoption is the wave of adoption for all parties involved

Shannon: It is just so much more settled when you know who your AP or BP is, seems to me.

cheryl kirby: cindy - when you say age - do you mean adoptive parents or birthparents...if it is APs - we have families from late twenties to early fifties...birthparnents range from 15 - 40

lisa s: Okay, I am going to be the "bad" guy ....I believe open adoption is not at all the way to go for many many reasons.

Shannon: The fear of the unknown goes away.

cheryl kirby: Lisa - I agree it is definitely not for every family

rosalief: have you had a problem with interference from the bp toward the adoptive family?

cindy: what about the fear that the bp will try to take the child back, can this happen, does it happen?

lisa s: With all respect to Shannon, you have to be an adoptive parent to really understand.

cheryl kirby: Lisa - I do feel that the more you education and "good" stories the better families feel about it

andreas: How do children react to AP's vs. BP's?

cheryl kirby: rosalief - we try to facilitate a meeting prebirth to work out a rod map for the contact pre- and past birth

rosalief: In what ways are you finding that children and families seem to work better because the adoption is open

lisa s: I speake for many parents when I say it is fear that the BP will reject the child once a relationship is estab. causing even more confusion.

cheryl kirby: andreas - in an open adoption the adoption is not a secret - it is normalized as how the family came together...

chatadmin: Ms. Kirby, don't you think Open Adoption is similar to making a blended family work, only the "parenting" of the child will be solely the responsibility of the AP?

cheryl kirby: the child knows from a very early age the difference between his birthmom and his adotptive mom..

cheryl kirby: the last panel I observed there were 2 teens from an open adoption (different families) and they said ...were not stupid - we know who are parents are..

Jane: I'd like to mention that many foster parent adoptions are open adoptions because of visits that took place before termination of parental rights. And this can be hard on the child because the reality of the situation is often sad.

cindy: do the teens ever play the bp against the ap?

cheryl kirby: chatadm- yes - families are being brought together in so many different ways - it;s just having an open mind and heart

cheryl kirby: cindy - as any teen - I'm sure that they know what buttons to push

cheryl kirby: cindy - I feel that developing strong boundaries early on in the relationship with birthparents is crucial to healthy relationship

cindy: do the birth families have any rights concerning the child?

rosalief: have you had an occassion where the rules for open adoption changed, and because of fear the a/f no longer wants to do this, then what?

cheryl kirby: cindy - once a birthmom/father sign their relinquishments , they may have a revocation period...

Shannon: How have you dealt with birth grandparents who want an ongoing relationship with the child when the BP do not?

cheryl kirby: specific to their state. but once the adoption is finalized - the contact is a morally binding agreement

Kim: I have children that were adopted at 6 and 9 they were in my foster home they have a bio aunt that is a good friend of mine now, as a matter of fact I dont know what I would have done without her.

rosalief: good question regarding b/grandparents and even other relatives. How does all of this work when the child is envolved

cheryl kirby: rosalief - yes the open adoption agreement may change overtime and an IAC counselor may help to facilitate an updated open adoption agreement to meet the needs of everyone.

lisa s: Kim, I think that is so great. Wish everyone in open adoption had similar exp.

cheryl kirby: shannon- yes sometimes birth grandparents may want to be involved, especially if the birthmom is very young

Jane: Kim, as I recall, some of the relatives are not so positive, tho.

Jane: Kim, as I recall, some of the relatives are not so positive, tho.

rosalief: cheryl, give an example if you can of a family where there is ongoing communication, and one that didn't work.

Shannon: Birth moms are so young sometimes, that makes sense. Birth grandparents seem to sometimes get forgotten.

Kim: Right we have had to stop all contact with Grandparents because of past abuse

cheryl kirby: I have found that family can be very influential in the adoption process. we always ask birthparents about their support system and family involvement

Kim: We have had some of both experiences good and bad

cheryl kirby: rosalief - we were working with a young birthmom - 17 - in high school - never parented before and had very poor boundaries...

cheryl kirby: the adoptive parents understood this going into a "match

cheryl kirby: with her and decided to continue working with her...

cheryl kirby: with her and decided to continue working with her...

cheryl kirby: so once the baby was placed with the family - only one state over - the birthmom was having a hard time with her grief and needed additional reassurance that they were going to stay in contact with her...

cheryl kirby: and not forget about her. as a counselor we had to help the adoptive parents set some limits with her and also renegotiate the open adoption agreement that felt comfortable for everyone

cindy: what happens if the APs decide that it is in the best interest of the child to stop all contact, with the BPs.,

Shannon: Do you see a higher incident of BP who have parented (or placed) seeking open adoption the second time around?

lisa s: Our adoption was semi-open...do you every do those type?

lisa s: good ? Cindy

cheryl kirby: I would want to know why? if the APS feel that the birthmom may be back using drugs, then yes, I think as parents you have to make decisions based on your child's safety

Jane: Is there any legal basis for openness in adoption?

cheryl kirby: we want the adoption to be as open as possible. we want the adoptive parents to feel comfortable and willing to disclose their address, phone number, etc. Some of our families have their birthparents visit each year. If a birthmom states that she ...

cheryl kirby: does not want to have contact with the family after birth, we will respect that...

cheryl kirby: and ask the APs if that is the adoption they are interested in. - I apologize for the duplicates!

andreas: - has joined the chat -

lisa s: That's ok Cheryl..hot topic tonight!

Shannon: How involved do you find Birth Fathers to be?

cheryl kirby: Jane - I do know that there are a few states (I;m not sure which ones off hand) that would hold an adoptive parent to their open adoption agreement - but most times it is only morally binding

andreas: - has joined the chat -

andreas: - has joined the chat -

rosalief: I may have missed this somewhere, but how do you screen birthmothers. Do you give psychologicals, and is this a long term situation. Also, do you have a home for pregnant girls so that you are assured of their health

Kim: Before our adoption our birthmother wanted to have visits with our child and we talked very frankly with her about how we did'nt think that would work and she then was in total agreement

cheryl kirby: shannon - only about 50% are involved - and usually only involved to sign the paperwork and that's it

cheryl kirby: rosalief - we do an "intake" with all of our first time calling birthmoms - usually on the phone ...

cindy: do you have BPs that have had more then one open adoption?

cheryl kirby: we ask about their demograhics (age, race,) and ask some more intrusive ? - drug/etoh use, counseling, prenatal care, ...

cheryl kirby: but we have to place some "trust" in the process or birthmoms would not call us back...

cheryl kirby: as I mentioned earlier - the last thing a birthmom wants to hear is judgement. We do not do criminal checks or urine drug screens -unless there is any suspicious behavior

lisa s: Cheryl, do you understand my concern that a relationship will start...only to find that the birthparent wants to stop because they marry later on and become parents again? What will this do to the child?

cheryl kirby: cindy - yes - we have had one birthmom who placed 3 of her children (at different times) with the same family

cindy: does your agency provide a home and medical care if needed?

Shannon: Do you find alot of repeat placements like the one who placed three with the same family? I think it is more common than we think.

cheryl kirby: Lisa - yes this can be hard for a child...the best rule of thumb is to have as much information about the birthparents that you can share with your child and try to emphasize that they were placed out of love

rosalief: lisa interesting question, I hadn't thought of that. How does that work, and is the child greatly affected by this new family that he's not physically a part of?

cheryl kirby: cindy - actually we do not have a maternity home - we have referred birthmoms to some locally. we do recommend...

cheryl kirby: that birthparents utilize state assisted medical care - Medicaid - if they refuse - then some of our adoptive parents are open to assisting with full medical coverage

Jane: The book "Children of Open Adoption" gives a lot of food for thought about how BP's impact the children.

andreas: Are there any statistics on BPs changing their mind in open adoption vs. closed?

Kim: I had to give my older children permission to love their birthmom, because they thought I would be hurt by them still loving her

cheryl kirby: shannon - I certainly have heard of many...but sometimes I think the families go private after they have already placed once - and don't feel that they need our services (counseling),

Shannon: What are the expenses AP's are allowed to manage for the BP's in Georgia?

cheryl kirby: andreas - I'm not sure

cheryl kirby: kim - that is very common...I think children are very concerned about hurting their parents feelings - and that's is why we want the APs to bring up the subject - its not something to avoid

lisa s: Kim..totally personal...what do you feel is the hardest part about your adoption being so "open?"

Shannon: Kim, that is wonderful! I think alot of kids feel like they are somehow betraying AP's if they even think of the BP.

cindy: are all the children infants or are older children placed through open adoption?

cheryl kirby: shannon - they are fairly vague...they have to be adoption related expenses and must go through a third party

Kim: allways the fear of them returning, even when you know the person and situation

cheryl kirby: cindy - we mostly work with infant placements, but we will work with children up to age 4.

Shannon: I know some states are very specific, but I never knew exactly what Georgia's stand on that was.

lisa s: Ok Kim, you just made me cry.

Jane: Cindy, as mentioned in Kim's situation...

Jane: open adoptions of older children are not unusual, too.

Kim: Sorry Lisa Hugs

cheryl kirby: there are so many resources out there on "how to talk to your children about adoption" - there is a great resource called "Tapestry"

rosalief: when a child is 4yrs, and being adopted openly. Is this child in the state system, or is this child just now being placed with your agency?\

Shannon: And when they are older, what are some of the circumstances behind the decision of the BP to place?

cheryl kirby: rosalief - usually it would not be a state involvement...most DFACS offices already have contracts with specific agencies...

andreas: Do many open adoptions take place through the state?

cheryl kirby: I have found that the older the child is - the stronger the bond - the harder it is for placement

cindy: wouldn't an open adoption of a 4yr be very hard for the child to understand?

Shannon: There are some REALLY open agencies out there!

chatadmin: I have participated in a number of Open Adoptions. The experiences of older children have been as positive as those of the younger ones for the most part. Have you found this Cheryl?

andreas: Doesnt it seem like a relative would want the older child?

cheryl kirby: andreas - I'm not as experienced with DFACS now - but I think that they are starting to look at adoption in a different way and may be more open to "openness" than in the past

cindy: do the families receive and adoption assistance with this type of adoption?

Jane: Adoption

cheryl kirby: cindy - yes I think it may be very hard to explain to a child - I think a gradual transition with alot of love and attention is the healthiest approach

rosalief: it was asked earlier about circumstances that would allow an older child to be placed with your agency. I would like to know a little more about this please

Jane: stance is based on the child's situation, and not affected by openness.

cheryl kirby: cindy - I don't have much experience with adoption assistance

cheryl kirby: rosalief - a birthmom who wants to make an adoption plan with her child would contact our agency...

cheryl kirby: and we would complete the intake. Based on the families currently working through our agency ...

Shannon: The thing I have always worried most about with an older child being placed is whether there was a lack of bonding between the BP and the child, leading the older child to have missed out on the basic bonding process. Is there alot of attachment issues with these cases?

lisa s: Cheryl, While I disagree with open adoption...bet you couldn't figure that out....I admire your dedication to the families you work with with. Thank you for being here tonight.

andreas: Informative. thank you

rosalief: we have asked and you have answered, thank you very much for your knowledge, and your time. You were great

lisa s: Shannon, Yes, at least I hear that a lot from other adoptive parents.

cheryl kirby: we would identify those who are open to an older child and send their birthmom letter to the birthmom. we would want a completed physical and psychological exam before we would place the child with the family. also make sure the family understands the very tender nature of this adoption

cindy: Cheryl is there anything that you would like to tell us about your agency before we close?

Shannon: It is a tough one. How can we contact you for further information about your services?

cheryl kirby: we have a web site and...

cheryl kirby: it is www.adoptionhelp.org or call 404321-6900

cheryl kirby: thank you for allowing me to visit tonight!

Jane: I'd like to remind people of all the books in our library on open adoption.

Kim: Thank You Cheryl

cheryl kirby: My pleasure

Shannon: Thanks so much! It was great. The time just flew by.

cindy: Cheryl thank you for being here tonight you were very helpful and knowledgable .

cheryl kirby: This was a lot of fun, and I would be happy to join you again and answer any more questions by phone!

Jane: - has left the chat -

andreas: - has left the chat -

Shannon: Thanks again. Goodbye.

Shannon: - has left the chat -

lisa s: goonight all

cindy: Cheryl agian I wish to thank you for your time, you were great, would you be interested in being listed as a resource on our web site?

lisa s: - has left the chat -

cindy: Thanks again, you know how to reach me if you need anything,

cindy: Good Nite.

chatadmin: - has left the chat -